Westsail Owners Alliance - Thread: "Please Advise Bud"
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Thread: "Please Advise Bud"

12,268 posts on 2,444 threads   •   From Mar 07, 2004 - Jan 08, 2012

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Please Advise Bud


Joe Hanley and Jayne Sagar

Hello Bud
Please could you take a look at my post in the general discussion area regarding W32 Bowsprit extension to improve light airs performance and weather helm situations. I would be very interested in,and grateful, for your input.

Kind regards

Joe. - UK..


Bud Taplin
(Member)

Joe,

The W32 already carries plenty of sail area. Most owners have to reef down when the windspeed exceeds 15 or so knots, otherwise the rail is in the water, and the boat loses performance. A smaller area of the mainsail helps in all but light downwind performance, and that can be taken care of with a cruising spinnaker.

Quit reinventing the wheel.


Joe Hanley and Jayne Sagar

:-)
Thanks Bud
The wheel will stay round.

Joe. :-)



Joe Hanley and Jayne Sagar

One last question (and you can slap me if you want to lol :-) .....

In your opinion Bud, is the westsail design somewhat constrained by it's heavy layup?.. what I mean is, if the layup was lighter, or more calculate (bearing in mind the fomula of the day and uncertainty of FRP design ... the ballast to displacement ratio would be higher leading to a stiffer boat able to carry more sail area?... same displacement, but more b/d ratio...??.. I get the impression that WIBC thought the same, or am I just getting old lol >>>???


I don't mean to be pedantic Sir, it is purely my wierd train of thought. :-)

Joe.


Bud Taplin
(Member)

Joe,

When the fiberglass layup of the Kendall (later Westsail) was first decided upon, it was 1969, and not much was done then regarding weight savings and strength calculations. The guys just felt that the fiberglass should be about as thick as wood planks. Over the years of the construction of the Westsail 32, there was discussion amongst the owners, sales, and engineering, about reducing the thickness of the laminate. Sales won out, with the argument that if the public found out the the Westsail boats, after hull number XXX, had a thinner layup, then that might give the competition something else to complain about, considering the popularity of the W32, and possibly kill sales.

So yes, a lighter layup might increase performance, however you gets what you pay for with a Westsail. Go smash breakwaters and hit whales, and you boat won't sink. That's happened already.


Joe Hanley and Jayne Sagar

Hi Bud
Excellent info, many thanks Sir.
Yes, I thought that may be the case.. I went to look at what I thought was a W32 in Portugal a few months back, it turned out to be a copy of sorts, built 1985 in Australia. It had glass so thin that you could see daylight through it (above the waterline near the deck join), which surprised me. (after all I had read we the hull layup) .. Later I found it to NOT be a W32 as mentioned above. (Can't find ANY info on the makers or history though which surprised me).

It's all 'swings and roundabouts' anyways :-) .. as you rightly say, the strength is a major selling point, and like any boat, I suppose you just learn to get the best from it as designed.

Thanks again Bud.

Joe.


Jeff Holemo

Joe
For what its worth...I can see daylight through my W32 hull above the waterline.
Jeff


Jeff Holemo

Nope It is in the bow area. I have all the ceiling boards removed and can see light coming through the hull.


Bud Taplin
(Member)

Jeff,

You must be looking out the portlight.


Bud Taplin
(Member)

Jeff,

Fiberglass, without any paint or gelcoat, is translucent. Even with white gelcoat on the exterior, it is still somewhat translucent. The black backup gelcoat that was used in the laminating should block all of the light coming through.



Jeff Holemo

I knew that. No worries here about the integrity of the hull. I do have a valid question about the portlights....how do you remove them? I removed all the bolts and the thing just wont budge. I am worried the caulk has worked its way onto the inside plywood and forcing the unit out of the hole will rip the veneer. Help!


Joe Hanley and Jayne Sagar

Hi Jeff.. If I may interject... a couple of softwood blocks and 'Large' screwdrivers or chisels under the rim should pull the offending item out.... :-)

Just look away but stop if you hear cracking sounds lol.....

If you can get a knife to the caulking, then try and cut it first !... apart from that, sheet over them in Dural .. :-) :-)...

They 'should' come out ok,,, indeed, if it does drag the core, then scoop back and fill with epoxy resing and microbaloons...


Joe.


Mike McCoy

I haven't got around to it yet but I want/need to remove my portlights as well... one, to recaulk and two, I want to polish the inner half. A big PITA but I think the polished bronze will add a definate degree of 'elegance' to the interior.

I think what Jeff was concerned about (and now me too ;) is accidently peeling off the veneer of the interior mahogany around the portlight.

It's easily done. The PO of my boat mounted some ceramic tiles to basically every bulkhead in the boat with 5200. They ain't coming off without removing the surface veener. Ask me how I know

Yep, I used liberal quantities of 'De-Bond' (a chemical specifically designed to break the adhesion of 5200) trying to 'soak' the 5200 over a course of weeks. A couple small ones came off relatively clean (very light sanding, re-oiling the surface and you can hardly tell they were there) BUT in removing one in the main salon it just took the veneer right off the stb main bulkhead. Well, it was a good place for a magazine rack anyway ;) Now I'm REALLY gunshy about trying to remove the other ones. They're nice.. they just ain't 'me'.

I also removed a plastic 'trash placard' that was affixed right next to the compass (I felt the area could be put to better, more functional use). It was attached via double sided tape. Sure enough, the veneer began seperating from the underlying plywood. Fortunately it was just a short strip directly under the tape that came loose (no tearing of the veneer itself) and I was able to 're-laminate' it properly.

Take care around your mahogany veneer. it's pretty delicate stuff.


Jeff Holemo

Mike
Thanks for clarifying my problem and suggesting de-bond..I think I have seen it on ebay. I definitely dont want to tear any of that lovely mahogany veneer off the cabin sides. All of my portlights are coming out so I can remove that green crud that is growing on them...I think it is called bronze disease? Anyway I removed just the window part from two of them and took the delaminated glass out ( a hammer works well). I put the frames into the bead blaster and went to town on them. Replaced the glass with tinted lexan and now they look brand new. I am not sure if they originally had a mirror finish but they dont now. I really dont care though...they looked horrible before.
Jeff


Mike McCoy

Actually that 'green crud' is a crust of copper sulfate or copper chloride that forms on bronze/copper/brass in a salt air/water environment. The proper term for it is verdigris.

I'm almost sure the portlights originally had a 'mirror' finish. I've polished a bit of one using brasso and it does end up looking very shiny/polished. The problem is all the nooks/crannys of the portlight that would be virtually impossible to polish properly with something like Brasso. I keep trying various wipe-on/wipe-off 'miracle cleaners' but nothing has worked yet. Thus I think it's just going to take removing them and using elbow grease/buffing wheel/etc. to polish them properly.

I'm not sure De-Bond would work for you. It's made specifically for 5200 and unless you know someone recaulked your portlights with it you would just be wasting money (and it isn't that cheap).

I just haven't figured out how De-Bond is supposed to migrate into the bond between the object and surface or even if it does. The only way I've been able to get it to work is to get a bit of 5200 peeled away from the surface and keep the working edge wet with De-Bond. Then sure enough the 5200 slowly peels away. However, I think my particular problem is the 5200 has got into the irregular 'pores' and grain of the wood which is making it extremely difficult (if not impossible)to remove without removing/destroying the surface of the wood.

As far as the portlights go it wouldn't really matter if the veener came loose *under* the portlight rim. But what you absolutely want to avoid is 'tearing' the veneer along the grain (horizontally) away from the portlight. And if you aren't careful that's exactly what happens. After working with it the plywoodwood/veneer bond seems awfully weak to me. I wonder if the glue originally used to laminate the veneer to the underlying plywood has slowly degraded over the years.

It sounds like you already removed at least one. How did that go?



Jeff Holemo

I didnt remove the frame. I just removed the window part. That was easy. The frame itself is the problem. That thing just wont budge. I might try a heat gun to soften the caulk. I might also try that debond stuff. Four of my portlights already have some delamination of the veneer around them which worries me that they might just tear completely off when I force the frame out of the hole. After this cold front and rain get out of here I will go to work on it. I'll let you know how it came out.


Bud Taplin
(Member)

Jeff,

You can clean up the green stuff on the portlight with industrial strength toilet bowl cleaner. It has a high concentration of muriatic acid, that really cleans up the bronze. It does leave a slightly mottled finish, which can be polished up with Brasso.


Tom Crank

You should be able to break the bond by heating the blade of a putty knife with the heat gun and then sliding it beneath the rim. it's a bit slow since you have to reheat the knife quite often but it should work.


Anonymous
(Guest)

Just to add my two cents. Several years ago I removed all of my portlight frames to reseal them. I removed each port light and all of the fasteners - actually removed the bolts. I didn't just take the nuts off. Then I laid a piece of 2x4 across the opening and used a maul to drive each frame out. I didn't have any problem with delaminating, perhaps because they had never been removed before and 5200 was not used originally. Which raises another point, perhaps you do not want to use 5200 when you put the frames back in - just in case you might want to remove them again some time in the future. Using a maul you can beat or tap as your heart desires. Just be patient and careful.


Jeff Holemo

Thanks for all the help. I successfully removed the portlight with little to no damage to the veneer. What veneer was pulled away was glued back down. Looks good. For some reason this was the only portlight that gave me any trouble so far. Figures it was the first one I attempted so it made me assume all of them were going to be equally stubborn. The next three I removed came right out...with a little help from a block of wood and a hammer. Four down six to go!


Peter Sherman

Jeff,
A method I've used in the past is to cut the bead or otherwise soften or loosen whatever was used,hopefully polysulfide and not 5200, then with appropriate blocking on both sides of the cabin trunk use a C-clamp or any stout screw clamp passed through the port hole after the "window" part has been removed. Screwing the clamp applies controlled and even pressure, and a gentle tap now and then if needed, but you can go nice and slow and you don't have to beat on anything. A threaded rod with washers and nuts would work if you don't have the right size clamp.
Peter


Dave King
(Member)

Ahoy Jeff, I have another penny's worth. I never seal the inside of the porthole frame to the cabinside. It should not need anything as the seal is on the outside. When I do add a seal to bed between metal and wood, I usually use Dolfinite. It will seal without glueing.


Tom Crank

New Found Metals the manufacturer of my new ports recommends butyl rubber strip caulk. It doesn't harden therefor the seal won't fail and the port won't adhere to the surface.


Mike McCoy

Thanks Dave and Tom... you confirmed my thoughts/plan exactly.


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Steve & Joan

I recently replaced the portlight gaskets with 0.266? silicon.

I have 20? left over if any one is interested.

Should last a life time.

Contact me at smorisky@gmail.com


Steve & Joan

Remaining quantity (~20 feet) sold to fellow WOA member.

Sorry.

If you desire same product, my source is:

Quick Cut Gasket
192 Erie Street
Lancaster, NY 14086
716-684-8628

Minimum quantity = 40?
Price per foot = $0.90

Description = .266SQ SIL70

Note: Standard Silicon Rubber therefore will be orange in color.

Procedure
1. Scrape out track where old gasket resided with small tip flat blade screw driver.
2. With small wire brush, clean mating?knife edge? of associated glass portal frame.
3. Vacuum track and port light areas.
4. Obtain new gasket material, starting at top dead center (12 o?clock), work gasket in to track, until meeting starting end.
5. Cut with wire cutter at right angle, ensuring clean cut.

Note there should be a gap of ~1/8?

6. Close portal light and inspect for fit.
7. Remove new gasket material. Measure for similar installation, and cut accordingly.


Bud Taplin
(Member)

The only problem is that most of the portlights use a 5/16" square gasket, not 1/4" square. (.312" instead of .250").


Steve & Joan

Bud,

Thank you for the correction. I put a dial indicator on it, you were right (as usual). Those old eyes of mine again.

New info below.

Quick Cut Gasket
192 Erie Street
Lancaster, NY 14086
716-684-8628
Speak to Marge.

Minimum quantity = 32?
Price per foot = $1.12

Description = .312SQ SIL70

Note: Standard Silicon Rubber therefore will be orange in color.


Bud Taplin
(Member)

The 5/16" portlight gasket material I have is a black rubber material, with a hole down the center. This allows the ridge on the portlight glass frame to seal well against the gasket material. My price per foot is slightly higher, but you do not have to buy a minimum amount, as I buy it in 100' lengths and cut it to order.

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